Formula series
- No extreme cooling (<20°C) allowed.
- Only Rookie, Novice and Enthusiast leagues are eligible
- Overclockers that participated in offline international competitions are not eligible.
General Competition Rules
- Only one HWBOT account per overclocker is allowed.
- Can’t change series from one Round to the other.
- HWBOT and ASUS reserve the right to reject any entry.
- Employees of MB/VGA/Memory/CPU/PSU manufacturers are not allowed.
- No hardware sharing is allowed (cf HWBOT 3.2.E)
- It is not allowed to remove submissions from the competition.
- After the end of the competition no more submissions or rectifications will be allowed. Plan your submission ahead!
- All submissions screenshot must include the official wallpaper of the round (download), except XTU
- Submissions must include a picture of the rig (MB, VGA, memory, CPU cooler) during use, except XTU.
- No limitation in the number of submissions per benchmark.
- Some country winners may be liable to import duty.
- Unfair play may lead to disqualification
- Examples of unacceptable behavior:
- Changing League before/during the competition for strategic purposes
- Influence others’ submissions to profit your ranking
- Deliberately forget/make a mistake in the submission process and ask later for change
Hardware
- Must use ASUS motherboard
- Must use commercially / retail available components at the beginning of the competition.
- We reserve the right to ban specific products
Benchmarks
Please check the stage details for more information
Stage 1: XTU
- Score is divided by the number of CPU cores.
- Highest score wins
- Min CPU temperature = 20°C
Stage 2: Realbench - Full test
- Highest score wins
- Min CPU temperature is 20°C
- No windows 8/8.1/10 (or server equivalent) allowed, except for Skylake
- Provide sufficient verification for your CPU temperature by showing HWMonitor information. (RealTemp and CoreTemp are not OK)
Stage 3: HWBOT x265 Benchmark - 1080P
- Score is divded by CPU cores.
- Min CPU temperature is 20°C
- Provide sufficient verification for your CPU temperature by showing HWMonitor information. (RealTemp and CoreTemp are not OK)
Point Distribution per Stage
50-41-36-32-30-28-26-24-22-20-19-18-17-16-15-14-13-12-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1-1-... (for XTU: 5-4-3-2-1)
OP reserved for moderation updates
Submissions Check:
Screenshot Examples:
Hardware Limitations:
Temperature Limitations:
Operating System Limitations:
Moderation decisions:
The competition is called >>>ROG<<< OC Showdown, not ROC
I know, it rocks but... Fix the title on OC-eSports.io, please!
It's not fair. We also want a Tuf Wallpaper. ;-)
Woow its awesome !! Good luck to everyone , i dont understand something , all participants become a tshirt or something a package?
- temperature under load
- all benchmarks have score divided by cores
Fixed, good catch.
The t-shirts are for the people who win the lucky draw; not for everyone.
Thanks Massman
Could u add it to the rules please?
Right now for realbench :
Highest score wins
Min CPU temperature is 20°C
No windows 8/8.1/10 (or server equivalent) allowed
Yup, will do.
I'm also changing the OP to Christian Ney so he can use it for moderating
Is there any prerequisite to the hardware necessary for participation? i.e if we are supposed to stick with Core2Quad hardware or Skylake only?
OP updated!
The only hardware limitation is to use a motherboard manufactured by ASUS.
the rankings is strange...The first guys has worse scores than third man etc. Check it pls moderators.
All benchmarks score is divided by core. So ranking is highest score per core.
no screenshot required for xtu right?
Xtu have only 5 points for the first place, thats not fair .
Make 50/50/50= 150
I can't download the background...i clicked download and this is the link "http://oc-esports.io/___" ... please fix it.
Works here: http://url.hwbot.org/1Ro5D44
Hum correct the stage links are dead, will fix tomorrow.
Sreenshot is mandatory for xtu ?
Thanks
No
thanks
Is it required to use the same processor for all three phases?
good question
The rules say nothing about this, i think its ok when change the Hardware ?!
I thought to use g3258 for the second phase and my i7 6700K for the other two phases.
g3258 is really hard to go over 5GHz with realbench if the temperature exceeds 70 degrees
No, you can use different processors.
Only one GPU allowed.
Both added to OP
Rules say nothing about this.
What does "Only use one GPU for Realbench [15.11.15]" means? For example if I have 2x 980Ti SLI setup I should disable one of the cards?
Correct.
Too bad, I guess all my efforts will go for the final stage of the country cup.
Stage 2 (Realbench), the CPU "Min" temperature must be higher than 20°C (in HWMonitor) [04.11.15]
Min temperature is idle in hwmonitor .
If it s really 20°C under load then u should change the rules to :
Stage 2 (Realbench), the CPU "Max" temperature must be higher than 20°C
Thanks
cpu max temp would mean you can even bench on dice lol and get +20 temps if u have undelidded cpu and bad thermal paste
so to clarify, what is the temp rule? above 20c at all times? idle or load?
For XTU: under load
For other bench: Min
Just like it's written in the OP
CPU temp min. over 20C ?
I have a Mora3, this have in the Idle
15-20C
Rules not ok, make mind. 15C for Stage2 and 3.
Must Package or Cores temp over 20C ?
which version should be used for realbench? the latest version 2.41?
All my screens I have only Temperature as this is all the OC-eSports page said. Are my screens going to be acceptable or do I have to try and do this all over again because this rule is hidden away in here!?
Other problem is when taking a screen with the full HWMonitor is you wont see the official background???
Any version. Latest preferred of course.
The stage limitations on the stage page says:
"Example screenshot: click
Make sure to check Rules tab and Discussion thread for detailed rules and updates."
Also, I see that in your screenshots you used HWiNFO64 and not HWMonitor.
Well, that's 2 weeks wasted then.
important question
which is it?
Core
core1 18c and Core2 24c, thats ok?
Package temp 24c.
Thanks for the clarification. Core it is
Is a screenshot required for XTU? Submissions show max CPU temp, is this sufficient, or do you need a proper screen for a valid submission?
Ok, i have on th screen Core1 19C, Core2 20C, Core 3 22C an Core4 21C the Package Temp is 22C.
Thats ok?
The Package temp is the Cpu Temp or not?
THX
Thats stay in the rules : Min CPU temperature must be higher than 20°C
Ok, rules say not Core temps, rules say CPU temp, and the CPU temp is the Package temp !?
Your point of view is corect. But why said Chrisian Ney that temp per EACH core must be over 20?
Changing rules ingame it's not quite corect!
I have seen processors with as much as 10°C difference between a core and another that's why.
Ok, its the Package Temp ok or not, the rules say YES!
Package temp=CPU temp
Core temp= Core temps, not CPU temp
Thats ok?
http://img.hwbot.org/u54137/image_id_1522742.png
hi , Asus gtx 980ti matrix allowed for round 2?
thanks
New implementation to an old gpu, so, there's no problem.
Sandbagging NOT allowed !!!!!
Thanks .
I need an official answer from Christian Ney before i submit score .
I think it was retail before the beginning of the competition wasn't it?
Why is my score gone from the competition?
http://hwbot.org/submission/3032527_
The reason is written in the notification email you received: "Motherboard tab missing in screenshot"
No where in the rules is this stated and motherboard tab is not something that usually is required as CPU and men tab. Please specify this sort of things. Every competition there are discussions about unclear rules.
Just had an abundance of my scores removed.
Is HWinfo64 not acceptable? I have done all of my submissions with this and have no chance to re-run them all. This software is not adjustable AFAIK, so why would it not be acceptable?
Here and here
Only you and someone else out of the 50 people I just checked didn't have the motherboard tab.
It's written everywhere to use hwmonitor:
http://forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?t=148277
http://oc-esports.io/#!/round/rogocs_formula_r3/rules
http://oc-esports.io/#!/round/rogocs_formula_r3/2575/hwbot_x265_1080p
Top 20 of all stages checked.
I just saw that, but here is proof temp is same between the 2 programs.
I admit I missed the actual program, but the temps shown are the same, and my ambient temp here in AUS at the moment is high 20's to mid 30's.
I think so but could u check it please and tell me if it s ok .
Thanks .
Hi Chris, is this Screen ok (background)?
http://hwbot.org/submission/3047074
Allowed
Yes
Thanks
Thanks
I can use a graphics card msi? specifically "gtx 570 power edition"
Yes, there is no brand limitation other than for the motherboard.
Hi, its Cpu temp 20C ok, or must have 21C?
Thats realy hard over 20C with the Mora
20 is ok. OP updated "or equal to"
Thanks
Hi , when we save result with x265 benchmark it takes a screenshot .
Do we only need this one or do we have to take and other one too please ?
thanks
So competition starts Nov 6th and week or less ago rules were "temp had to be greater than 20c", which I've been working hard to stay over with my lowly 4790k. Now with a few days left "equal to 20c is ok"?
lol, its tough enough competing against 6700k's without upgrading.
At least have them run their bench again and stick to original rules cause guys [girls] who went to great effort to stay above 20c now need to redo benches to grind out a few more points.
I think it´s always been 20 or above, because 20.1 is greater than 20
No, the stated rule was 'min temp must be greater than 20c [in hardware monitor]' until a day or two ago and since hardware monitor won't read 20.1, to use your example, many of us have tossed bench runs that fell into the 20c range or lower to stay within Mr Ney's rules. Not a big deal at the end of the day for myself as I don't have the build at the moment to place high anyway. But in an effort to keep these competitions on as level a playing field as possible, I thought it was worth discussing and I'm having way to much fun to 'take my ball and go home' yet
raules009 x265 Bencmark with 6700k at 5200 MHz it's impossible at that minimum temps.
The temps can easy make fake!!!
Anyone try oc an 6700k at 5200 MHz limited at 20 C minim temp, and see what max temp goes!
XTU 5300G hmmmmmmmmm..........great Score, Watercooling?
It's the 1.6v on some submissions that have me questioning. Well done if they are true.
I wish I had you 5.0+ chips, these scores are crazy. I'm stuck at 4.8-4.9.
In the Xtu rules stay: Provide sufficient verification for your CPU temperature by showing HWMonitor information. (RealTemp and CoreTemp are not OK)
I see no screens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its not ok.
Helps too if your cpu temp is correct. Mine with 27deg water temp has 20deg idle which makes no sense.
Good luck everyone.
page 2 ;
nvidiaforever2
nvidiaforever2 says:
Sreenshot is mandatory for xtu ?
Thanks
28 days ago
Christian Ney says:
No
Ok the XTU Limitation say this : Limitations
-The CPU load temperature must be higher than 20°C
-a motherboard manufactured by ASUS
-Only members of the enthusiast, novice, rookie league may participate.
-Must use commercially / retail available components. Engineering samples are not allowed.
-Provide sufficient verification for your CPU temperature by showing HWMonitor information. (RealTemp and CoreTemp are not OK)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Make sure to check Rules tab and Discussion thread for detailed rules and update
I see no screens for XTU with HwMonitor !!!!
My guess would be, since XTU itself monitors load temp, no need for additional monitoring software
Yes thats correct, but stay in the Limitation
Greez
Formula series
No extreme cooling (<20°C) allowed.
Only Rookie, Novice and Enthusiast leagues are eligible
Overclockers that participated in offline international competitions are not eligible.
Rules say this
http://hwbot.org/submission/3054975
Min 0C !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Greez
Christian, do you check all submissions for proper screens today, as you did on Dec 1st, prior to finalizing to the competition? It seems many screens are missing the utilization tab which was cause for removal previously.
Same points for no 5 and 6. Who gets the the prize?? By what crithetrium??
Mr. Ney...I wait for an answer!
Are you checking all stages again since last check prior to finalizing the results?
There is a lot of impossible in this comp. I think the mods need a good look, especially at the chips doing 5.2-5.3 @ 1.6v+, would be very hard to keep at the temps they have. Mine at 4.9 hits 80 with delid, CLU, 1.52v and 20deg idle. It's very real.
Not calling anyone out in particular, just some scores seem off. Very good scores though, however they managed to cool it.
I still beleive these comps aimed at the ambient classes should have CPU speed caps, makes it more competitive that way, and not just for those that have the money to bin a heap of CPU's or cheat on cooling to get there.
One last thing, rig pics, close ups aren't satisfactory. You can't see the full extent of cooling. Yeah this too can be faked, but could reduce the question of legitimacy.
I think this is a great idea. I doubt I'm alone in wondering how you keep a 30c delta under watercooling at 1.6v+, this could be very valuable information since my phase often sees 30C drops in evap temps when running 1.6v+ under a 4c/8t. Likely an enthusiast league secret but I would love for someone to share.
As for the moderation, the contest closed just a short time ago. It can't be easy going to through all the submissions, everyone can see the ones missing things from the stated rules but the moderation team will catch them and I'm sure make an announcement when its complete and the final results are ready.
Wait of the final Scores, 5,3 and 5,2 is Not ok, no watercooling!!!
Thanks Rasparthe :celebration:
The mod staff will process the results as soon as possible. Please stay tuned.
Really ? :
Wow, that video even makes me wonder more. Why are the CPUz volts disabled? As I would have expected your load starts up and hits the thermal throttling quickly, is this just a variation of using slow mode for XTU? How did this setup provide such a good score for Realbench if it hits thermal throttling in under 2 seconds? It would have been interesting to see what is to the right of the rig as the picture doesn't pan that far to the right and what the run score was. Thanks for the video though, I wonder if discussions about video of all runs will start up again?
there s an option in the bios if u set it to disable u won t see any voltage on cpu-z .
Voltage was set to 1.6v
I have a bug where cpu-z is only showing vid
My first video is here u can see settings in aisuite 3
And yes it s slow mode (oc panel) . u don t need to run full speed to have a score on xtu .
Its the slow Mod allowed ? I think no!!
have you see in the rules : " the slow mod isn't allowed " ???
if no .... it's allowed
........sorry, its ok, slow mod its allowed.
Thanks for the video, did raise some questions as I haven't seen the setting in bios that hides the volts, and the throttling was strange. Can you share so we can see for ourselves? My CPUz has had no problems showing voltages in any windows version.
Also noticed your temp going below the 20deg min by the looks, but hard to see. Could be wrong.
Slow mode is a bug/tweak. Not a true run, but allowed none the less.
The option is cpu svid support .
It was a fresh win10 install .
Now everything is ok . It s either because i updated win 10 or because i removed cpu rog connect and aisuite .
I couldn t install turbo vcore at first ( io driver error) . After updating and removing softwares it was possible and now voltage is accurate in cpu-z
There s no limitation for xtu except 20°C load .
Strange. I might try and replicate myself.
Also
Esport rules tab show 20 min, this thread says max temp >20. Needs clarification. The rules for this have been very cloudy, I hope in future they make it clearer with less chance of fabricating temperature results.
That s why i asked moderators when competition started .
They changed it to 20°c load, u can see it on first page of this thread
Screenshot from Raules :
http://hwbot.org/submission/3055983_raules009_geekbench3___multi_core_core_i7_6700k_22604_points
5200mhz @ 1.63v .My cpu can do it with 1.58v .Therefore he s benching x265 at 5200mhz when i can only do 5070 .
Can't u see there 's a problem ?
Yes,the problem is that both of you are cheaters and should be disqualified in this contest for breaking the rules:
FORMULA SERIES
No extreme cooling (<20°C) allowed.
Only Rookie, Novice and Enthusiast leagues are eligible
Overclockers that participated in offline international competitions are not eligible.
You cooling temperatures are way lower than 0 celsius and your results are made by benching at minus temperature,stopping coolant,warming up,screenshot ... Nice played gentleman...
Saw the temp rule clarified in the discussion thread. I'm happy your score in XTU is fine for the comp, but I hope you can understand why the hate/questioning. Mods can handle the rest.
The more transparent and clear you show your results, the less ???? after. Take better full rig pics, not close ups and be honest about it all, and screenshots no matter what, will also help silence. Hiding stuff makes you look guilty.
Raules, ????? That is another that needs serious attention.
Good score.
I don t like when rules are changing too .
when i asked the first time Massman answered it was 20°C load for all benches .
I benched xtu and x265 with idle temeprature below 20°C .
I sent the x265 screenshot to Christian Ney for clarification about frequency .(almost 5.2ghz if i remember)
Then they changed the rules for stage 2 and 3 and i had to rebench .
Aerotracks asked for a full rig picture at the last minute that s why i edited my submission with this picture but i didnt have to because it s not required , same for screenshot .
I wondered about the obvious disparity between your rig pic and your actual cooling setup - I didn't ask you anything, and even if I did, so what? Unless a mod approaches you for further verification, no need to do anything if you think your sub is bullet proof.
Well at least you don't beat around the bush. Of course that is what they are doing, I don't understand why they continue to insist they are just watercooling. I'm not up on the rules for watercooling but I thought chillers were allowed for enthusiast.
I think the video posted by NvidiaForever2 speaks volumes about how normal watercooling reacts to 1.6v on Skylake, it hits the thermal throttle in 3 seconds. That might be fine for XTU, since it acts like a slow mode and doesn't affect the score, but how exactly does hitting the thermal throttling in 3 secs provide a good score in Realbench?
As far as I can tell, they will get their prizes because they fall within the stated rules, and unless chillers are expressly not allowed in enthusiast, its legal. I'm sure it took its own amount of tweaking just to get it to fall within the ranges needed so I guess they can be proud of their work? Personally, I find it a little shady but since HWBOT allows it, how can it be criticized now?
At the very least, I hope that this gets HWBOT to finally make a class between Extreme and Enthusiast for this type of overclocker. Its blatantly unfair to the ambient overclockers, especially since as long as they are cooling liquid into a loop, it could be done with LN2 or DICE or even a phase cooler. There used to be a day when honor rules could hold but I'm afraid once prizes get involved it degrades into this.
I m tired to answer to people who doesn't know what theyre talking about . Throttle? lol .
U don t even know what is slow mode and how to use it .
Your absolutely correct, never used it before. If you think that makes me a worse overclocker you are welcome to the opinion. I won't even disagree.
Just be truthful about what your using to cool your liquid, all these closely cropped pics and carefully engineered screens make everyone very suspicious. It certainly makes me glad I'm not competing in Enthusiast.
Good scores though, I can't imagine the efforts you must have gone through to meet the contest requirements.
Appreciate your input and comments Rasparthe. You are a very respected member of the community for good reason.
Realbench have the same clock, but 3000P more?
0-500p more ok but 3000 its tweaking!!
How much of the 3000 points differens would you think comes from the faster memories with lower timings? Comparing your and Raules score indicates that they are pretty important.
I was a bit hard on you sorry but u can understand i m upset .
It s not temperature throttle u can see on the video it s just me who triggers the slow mode .
People really thinks i m going to cheat on a 5 points benchmark when i could have benched stage 2 and 3 at 5200+ mhz with ice bucket too ?
I benched h265 at 5200 mhz before they changed the rules for stage 2 and 3 and sent the screenshot to Christian Ney for verification . It was at the beginning of the competition
I showed u 5.23 ghz xtu with regular watercooling at ambient temp and it s still not enough .
Any way i feel comfortable about this cause i can rebench any day with the same frequencies and temperatures .
That's all? No final results? No moderation? No new anouncements?
Gratz to all, it was an amaising battle:)!
Finaly, it's all about the money! To have or not to have ultra high-end cooling solution and a OC Panel to enable slow mode onthefly:)!
Still think the lowest temps ware faked by the users from the 1-st to 3-rd place.
Bytheway...what make difference between me and KARTA in ranking? We have the same amount of points! He has the highest score, and I have 2 better sores then hi's. Explenations...?
3? My results was all ok!!
1&2 its possible?!
Greez
Guys, it has had that for the results since the end.
I don't think it's final yet. Christian hasn't been online since it finished. Let's wait for a confirmation here, nothing has helped with scores that don't comply with the rules. I'm with you that there is at least one questionable score, the mods have to look at.
For the record too, Stutvit and I are on the same points, we should both get prizes, otherwise it's not fair at all.
.....wait of the final scores
Processing the scores takes a while, sorry for the delay.
Okay, time to have a look at yet another moderation nightmare.
EDIT: TOP10 checked. Additional verification was asked for two "suspicious" scores.
what king of verification please ? I already posted a video and sent it to u .
Thanks
If my submissions were reported, so this Haswell rig picture at least is a little "suspicious"
http://hwbot.org/submission/3054986
New Generation 1152 ..........^^
Correct, two scores have wrong system picture.
other wrong picture?
I have emailed my picture to Christian, I picked the wrong one for one of mine.
I cannot update the submission with the correct one.
Sure seems to be many missing utilization tabs in the top 10 at least.
Whats up with the extrem cooling mods?
I hope for all we have a fair final scores!?
Greez
Nik
You'll not gonna see fair final scores:)!
Aniway, it was so much fun:)!!!
Gratz to all:)!
latest submission check Dec 13th top ten....
no utilization tab places 7th, 8th, 10th, 12th,
Is this ok now?
There is a few in there with screen shots that aren't right too, covering the 2015 Round 3. Just Sayin'
Little update:
Moderation decisions:
And the Video its ok?
There's a deadline for new proves?
I think thats Not ok, extremcooling not allowed (<20 C)
(Icewater.....)
Whats with the slowmod tweak, thats ok for a big Cup ?
Ok....wait !
Ice IS water, but you cant't keep the proc over 20 degrees in idle if you use it.
Looks like dice, not ice.
Video is coming
I sent it 2 days ago .
Ice or DICE nvf?
ice of course . Dice is extreme and it would freeze the water inside the loop
Was hard to tell in the video. I've never used Ice, because of the ambient rules.
All good.
Icecooling its nice for big points, but the rules say only watercooling not icecooling (extrem).
Greez and have fun !
It's not a problem with competition rules, but you CANNOT USE WATER WITH ICE AND KEEP THE CPU OVER 20 C in idle!!!! (For stages 2 and 3).
I said this again and again!!!
Yep that s why i only used it for stage 1 where limitation is 20°C load .
Nik u can repeat the same thing again and again but it won t change the fact it s allowed in enthusiast league .
Unfortunately nvf is right. Mods should have kept the rule at over 20, then this wouldn't be an issue. All hindsight, hopefully they stick to their guns in the future comps.
Good comp guys, lets wait for Christian to finish off and announce the comp.
Enthusiast league limitations and competition limitations are DIFERENT things!
Nvf you make a good score, but i think the biggest problem is the stage 1 rule, thats not ok, under 20 c its not enthusiast, its extrem.
Greez
Thats say all
FORMULA SERIES
No extreme cooling (<20°C) allowed.
Only Rookie, Novice and Enthusiast leagues are eligible
Overclockers that participated in offline international competitions are not eligible.
Wrong rule for stage 1 !!!!!!
You cheeted the rules on stages 2 and 3, like I said!!!
It's not possible initial temp 20 C and final temp under 80 C in stages 2 and 3 without cheeting HWMonitor!!!
Mr. Ney, try yourself to keep a 6700k at 5100 MHz/1,63V at min/max temps = 20/80 C benching x265 1080p real temp overkill X2!!!
Maximum temps may be possible, but minimum temps(for the competition rules) it's IMPOSSIBLE in that conditions!!!
For first satege, XTU, it's not problem to use eny cooling you want without exceeding 20 degrees load, but for other two stages ALL of you must respect the rules about the minimum cpu temps!!!
Who?
Hope the proof actually shows the ICE bucket. Unlike the last videos. [emoji19]
He added it to his submission
EDIT: http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlQ62hRRFoY
Its gone. [emoji107]
Edit:- NVM, found it through his channel.
Where is the videos?................wait,wait, 2 weeks later
Need to wrap this up. People getting impatient.
They were busy with HOT final .
Moderation decisions:
Ranking will update in an hour.
Its the Video online from nvf ?
.............Extremcooling win (slowmode+Ice).
I said again, the rule for the "Formula Cup " write this:
Formula series
No extreme cooling (<20°C) allowed.
Only Rookie, Novice and Enthusiast leagues are eligible
Overclockers that participated in offline international competitions are not eligible.
Stage 1 rules write this:
Limitations
The CPU load temperature must be higher than 20°C
Ok, rules said all the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not under 20C CPU temp, never mind load or idle temp.
I find thats very unfair for all enthusiast Clocker, thats not ok.
Greez and have fun.
Nik
Christian, wondering if you are adjusting submissions that are missing the required utilization tab. Many in the top ten do not have.
Whatever rule is put on this comeptition, it will ALWAYS be subjective.
Min temp at zero ? people lauching realtemp at heating, easy cheat -> nope
Max temp >20 ? people screaming about salted ice -> nope
Some temp at "ambient" ? people screaming about canadians, russians and inuits -> nope
No limitations ? no cheating possible, and people still continue screaming -> nope
...
This thing of enthusiast going subzero with salted ice (perhaps as expensive as dice, ln2 and SS somewhere?) is discussed in several topics on this forum, so maybe create a general one, without DRAMA and with propositions of SOLUTIONS.